Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members
in attendance
|
Angela Burns
|
Ceidwadwyr Cymru
Welsh Conservatives
|
Keith Davies
|
Llafur Labour
|
Suzy Davies
|
Ceidwadwyr Cymru Welsh
Conservatives
|
John Griffiths
|
Llafur
Labour
|
Lynne Neagle
|
Llafur Labour
|
David Rees
|
Llafur (Cadeirydd dros dro)
Labour (Temporary
Chair)
|
Aled Roberts
|
Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru
Welsh Liberal Democrats
|
Simon Thomas
|
Plaid Cymru The Party of
Wales
|
Eraill yn bresennol Others in
attendance
|
Kate Cassidy
|
Cyfarwyddwr, Cymunedau a Threchu Tlodi, Llywodraeth
Cymru
Director, Communities and Tackling Poverty, Welsh
Government
|
Lesley Griffiths
|
Aelod Cynulliad, Llafur (y Gweinidog Cymunedau a Threchu
Tlodi)
Assembly Member, Labour (the Minister for Communities and Tackling
Poverty)
|
Elin Gwynedd
|
Pennaeth Grymuso Plant a Phobl Ifanc, Llywodraeth Cymru
Head of Empowering Children and Young People, Welsh
Government
|
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn
bresennol National Assembly
for Wales officials in attendance
|
Sarah Bartlett
|
Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
|
Marc Wyn Jones
|
Clerc
Clerk
|
Siân Thomas
|
Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service
|
Dechreuodd y
cyfarfod am 09:31.
The meeting began
at 09:31.
|
Cyflwyniadau, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon
Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions
|
[1]
David
Rees: Good morning, and
can I welcome members of the public and members of the committee to
this morning’s session of the Children, Young People and
Education Committee? First of all, can I do some housekeeping? Can
I remind Members, if you’ve got mobile phones, please put
them on silent or switch them off, and any other electronic
equipment that may make noises or interfere with the broadcasting
equipment? We’re not scheduled for a fire alarm this morning,
so, if one does occur, please follow the directions of the ushers.
The meetings are bilingual, and if you require translation from
Welsh to English, that is available via the headsets on channel 1.
If you require amplification, then that’s also available on
the headsets, but that’s channel 2.
|
[2]
We’ve
received apologies this morning from Ann Jones and from Bethan
Jenkins, and there are no substitutes identified for
either.
|
09:32
|
Craffu ar
Waith y Gweinidog Cymunedau a Threchu Tlodi mewn perthynas â
Rôl Comisiynydd Plant Cymru
Scrutiny of the Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty on
the Review of the Role of the Children’s Commissioner
|
[3]
David Rees: If
we move onto the next item on the agenda, this morning we have the
Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty in attendance in
order to discuss two different topics, and we will separate those
topics clearly. Can I welcome the Minister, Lesley Griffiths? Would
you like to introduce your officials?
|
[4]
The
Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty (Lesley
Griffiths): Yes.
On my right is Kate Cassidy and on my left is Elin Gwynedd. Your
title?
|
[5]
Ms
Gwynedd: Head
of empowering children and young people.
|
[6]
Lesley Griffiths: Thank you.
|
[7]
David Rees: Thank you. Thank you for the written paper for the evidence
for the meeting. This first session we’ll look at is actually
the review of the role of the children’s commissioner, which
was undertaken by Mike Shooter on behalf of the Welsh Government,
and which reported back in December 2014. So, we’ll go into
questions in relation to that, and, obviously, since that point, we
appreciate that there’s been the appointment of a new
children’s commissioner as well, Professor Sally Holland. So,
we’ll start off with Suzy Davies.
|
[8]
Suzy
Davies: Thank you. Good morning.
|
[9]
Lesley Griffiths: Good
morning.
|
[10]
Suzy
Davies: The
ombudsman in Wales is accountable to the Welsh Assembly and not to
the Welsh Government. Why is the position different for the
children’s commissioner?
|
[11]
Lesley Griffiths: We’ve consistently respected the independence of all our
commissioners. We have several commissioners, and I think
there’s been a very strong tradition formed that’s
based on non-interference by Ministers. I think it’s
something that all Ministers consider to be a major source of
strength, and I think it’s something that all the
commissioners themselves acknowledge, and certainly the
children’s commissioner does. Welsh Government is obviously
the appointing and the funding body, and we as a Government are
very, very careful to respect the independence of the commissioner.
Processes are in place regarding the funding arrangements not
impinging on the independence of the commissioner. I think dividing
responsibility for appointment and funding on one hand and scrutiny
on the other between Welsh Government and the National Assembly for
Wales—I think that really helps the independence of the
commissioner, too, and the accountability.
|
[12]
I
think also that the children’s commissioner also advises us
at times. I think it’s very important—obviously,
now it’s ‘she’—that she is involved in
policy making. It’s a very different role from that of the
ombudsman and, actually, the Auditor General for Wales. I think
they have very different roles. They don’t have a role, for
instance, in promoting any particular policy, and, again, as I say,
the children’s commissioner does advise us on policy. The
one—
|
[13]
Suzy
Davies: Sorry, can I stop you there?
|
[14]
Lesley Griffiths: Yes.
|
[15]
Suzy
Davies: You
said the children commissioner’s got a duty to promote
policy.
|
[16]
Lesley Griffiths: No,
I said she advises us on policy.
|
[17]
Suzy
Davies: Yes,
but you said that was the distinction between the commissioner
and—
|
[18]
Lesley Griffiths: The
ombudsman and the Auditor General for Wales don’t have any
role.
|
[19]
Suzy
Davies: They have no
advisory role, no. I accept that, but you mentioned
‘promote’. So, I thought—. Okay. Sorry to disrupt
your flow.
|
[20]
Lesley
Griffiths: It’s okay. I
also think the way that the commissioner is
appointed—you’ll be aware, as you and Aled sat on the
cross-party panel, along with children and young people. I think
it’s very important that we had that role also. That’s
something in regulations. So, I just think that it’s
absolutely right that we retain that independence. I don’t
see that the commissioner being appointed by the National Assembly
for Wales would do anything to enhance that
independence.
|
[21]
Suzy
Davies: Well, I might
disagree with you on that because I think you’re right: the
perception of independence of this commissioner and other
commissioners is pretty critical, I think, to there being
confidence in their ability to hold the Government to account.
Because of that, and because of your own self-confessed regard for
that independence, can you explain why others disagree with you so
vehemently? Because, obviously, the majority of people who
responded to this consultation—and it was an overwhelming
majority—felt that the independence of the commissioner is
more publicly apparent if the commissioner’s accountable to
the Assembly rather than a Minister.
|
[22]
David
Rees: To clarify, I
don’t think it’s for you to explain other views, but
perhaps you could explain your views as to why you disagree with
others.
|
[23]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. I was going
to say that it’s not my position to defend other
people’s views. It’s my position to defend my
view.
|
[24]
Suzy
Davies: Okay. Why do you
disagree with the overwhelming majority?
|
[25]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think I’ve
explained. We’ve looked into it very carefully. I’ve
had discussions with officials, and other Ministers also who are
obviously responsible for their commissioners. That’s the
conclusion that we’ve come to. I think it’s the right
conclusion, and I think that the commissioner herself very much
values that independence. I know of her views, but I think that
separating the two functions is very sound for governance
also.
|
[26]
Suzy
Davies: So, you take the
advice of other Ministers and officials over those expressed in the
review that you yourself commissioned.
|
[27]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, my
predecessor commissioned it—
|
[28]
Suzy
Davies: Oh, sorry;
yes.
|
[29]
Lesley
Griffiths: —but, yes,
that’s the conclusion that we have come to.
|
[30]
Suzy
Davies: Did you give any
particular thought to the views expressed by UNICEF? Obviously,
UNICEF has a massive global status here. Their view is that
executive branch appointments can create difficulties for
institutional independence, especially if those institutions are
then called upon to monitor the body that appointed their leaders.
There is a risk of politically influenced appointments—and
I’m not suggesting that at all in this case—that can
cast doubt on the impartiality of the appointed candidate.
It’s this casting doubt that’s a concern for me
because, as I say, I have no concerns at all about the appointment
of the current commissioner, but how does that look to the outside
world, particularly when there’s still some difficulty in
promoting what the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the
Child, for example, is all about.
|
[31]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think what
UNICEF are saying is that difficulties appear when institutions are
called upon to monitor the body that appointed their leader. Again,
I go back to—. It’s unclear to me how a transfer to the
Assembly would create a greater level of independence.
|
[32]
Suzy
Davies: Well, because the
Assembly—
|
[33]
David
Rees: Please let the
Minister answer.
|
[34]
Suzy
Davies: Okay.
|
[35]
Lesley
Griffiths: The commissioners
in Wales need to be operationally independent, I think, from both
the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales. So, I
suppose if there’s a problem of perception, I think it is the
perception that the commissioner’s role is one of holding the
Welsh Government to account. I think the commissioner has a much
broader role than that. You know, they have a
responsibility—. I will say ‘she’; she has a
responsibility also for raising awareness of the UNCRC, promoting
children’s rights. So, you know, the commissioner’s
role isn’t purely one of holding the Welsh Government to
account. I read what they said about the politically influenced
appointments. Again, I go back—it’s a very open and
transparent procedure. The First Minister appointed the
commissioner on the recommendation of a cross-party panel, which
included young people. I know you were on the panel. The
involvement of the young people, I think, enhanced the process
greatly. So, if there is a problem of perception, it’s that
the commissioner’s only role is to hold the Welsh Government
to account. That’s absolutely not the case.
|
[36]
Suzy
Davies: Well, just to
finish on that, then, the UNCRC’s own monitoring
group—which of course is not so much about holding the
Government to account, but is involved in those other issues we
were just talking about, such as promotion and so
forth—expressed the view that the commissioner should be
accountable to the Assembly. Why would you disagree with
them?
|
[37]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I think
I’ve already explained that.
|
[38]
Suzy
Davies: Okay.
|
[39]
David
Rees: Aled.
|
[40]
Aled
Roberts: Beth
yw eich ymateb chi, Weinidog, i’r datganiad gan Mike Shooter
yn ei adroddiad bod y ffaith bod y penodiad yn cael ei wneud gan
Lywodraeth Cymru yn groes o safbwynt moesegol i’r holl
egwyddorion a sefydlwyd ar gyfer sefydliadau hawliau dynol
cenedlaethol?
|
Aled Roberts: What is your
response, Minister, to the statement by Mike Shooter in his report
that the fact that the appointment was made by the Welsh Government
goes against the idea of the principles that were established for
national human rights organisations?
|
[41]
Lesley
Griffiths: Again, I think
I’ve explained, you know, why we’ve come to the
conclusion that the process is right. I think a lot of the
recommendations from Mike Shooter—for instance, on the
appointment process he agreed that it was good practice to have the
cross-party panel and it was right to involve children and young
people, so whilst we weren’t acting on that recommendation
when we appointed in January, we were certainly very pleased that
that had been agreed. I don’t know if Kate wants to say
anything else.
|
[42]
Ms
Cassidy: Just that,
basically, the report bears out the approach that we’ve
taken, always, to the appointment of the commissioner to ensure
there was cross-party engagement, but equally importantly the
engagement of children and young people in that appointment, which
is already required by the regulations, and we’ll certainly
want to see that continue.
|
[43]
Aled
Roberts: Ond
mae’n debyg mai’r mater o gyllido’r comisiynydd y
mae Mike Shooter yn sôn amdano fo’n benodol. Mae
o’n dweud bod hyn yn groes o safbwynt
moesegol—dyna’i eiriau fo.
|
Aled
Roberts: But it appears
that it’s the matter of funding the commissioner that Mike
Shooter is talking about specifically here. He states that this is
contrary to the spirit of this matter—those were his
words.
|
[44]
Ms
Cassidy: In terms of who
appoints the children’s commissioner, I think, as the
Minister has said, it’s important to reflect on what the
actual role of the commissioner is, and the commissioner was
created as a matter of policy by the Welsh Government to promote
the rights and welfare of children and young people. So,
that’s why we want the commissioner to be able to be
accountable to the Assembly for how well they perform that role,
and to work with the Welsh Government in helping to promote that
policy.
|
[45]
David
Rees: Can I just clarify
the point on behalf of Aled, then? I think the question is—.
You’ve argued that you do not believe the independence is
challenged, then, as a consequence of the current circumstances,
and you also believe that the funding aspects don’t challenge
the independence either, because the funding is—this is what
you’re getting at—also from Welsh Government, and not
from the Assembly at all. The commissioner’s office depends
upon the Welsh Government for funding, so you don’t believe
that actually challenges the independence.
|
[46]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think I
mentioned earlier on that the processes are in place to ensure the
funding arrangements don’t impinge on her independence.
Budget estimates need to be laid before the Assembly, for instance.
So, I think there is that, sort of, safeguard, if you like, in
place.
|
[47]
Ms
Gwynedd: Budget scrutiny
is—. We, as Government, don’t monitor, as such, the
budget. It’s laid and then we have policy meetings, but
we’re not the body that scrutinises the funding in any way,
or how it’s spent. The Public Accounts Committee took that
role last year, and I believe they’re going to continue to
take that role this year.
|
[48]
David
Rees: Angela.
|
[49]
Angela
Burns: My apologies for
being slightly delayed, and I do hope I’m not covering a
question that’s already been asked, but I just wondered if
the issue of the independence of the commissioner had been
discussed at Cabinet level, Minister, and I wondered if there was
any, you know, reasoning behind this that was more that this might
be a slippery slope for the call, particularly by the Presiding
Officer, for all the commissioners to be appointed by the National
Assembly for Wales. I wonder if that is, actually, the main barrier
to this particular commissioner being given that level of
independence.
|
[50]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, it has been,
obviously, discussed at Cabinet. The review was set up by my
predecessor. That’s been discussed at Cabinet also.
[Interruption.] Excuse me. I’ve explained why I
believe that is the case. I really can’t see how the
independence would be enhanced by an appointment by the National
Assembly for Wales.
|
[51]
David
Rees: Can I clarify:
have you met with the Presiding Officer to discuss her views
on—?
|
[52]
Lesley
Griffiths: Have I
met?
|
[53]
David
Rees: Yes.
|
[54]
Lesley
Griffiths: No, I
haven’t met with her. I have written to her, because,
clearly, from the review, there were recommendations for Welsh
Government, there were recommendations for the commissioner herself
and there were recommendations for the National Assembly for Wales.
So, I’ve written to the Presiding Officer, pointing out, you
know, that some of the recommendations are wholly for the National
Assembly for Wales, but I haven’t actually met with
her.
|
[55]
David
Rees: Thank you. Okay,
Angela?
|
[56]
Angela
Burns: Yes, thank
you.
|
[57]
Suzy
Davies: Can I
just—[Inaudible.]?
|
[58]
David
Rees: One quick one,
then.
|
[59]
Suzy
Davies: It was the
question that I wasn’t allowed to ask. Can I just ask you,
simply, what would be the disadvantages of transferring the
responsibility or the accountability to the Welsh
Assembly?
|
[60]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I’m
not saying there would be any major disadvantages, but I
don’t see any advantages either, and, surely, that would be
the way I would make the decision.
|
[61]
Suzy
Davies: Okay.
Thanks.
|
[62]
David
Rees: It’s not
that you weren’t allowed to ask, it was about giving the
Minister a chance to answer the question you did ask. Keith, ask
your question.
|
09:45
|
[63]
Keith
Davies: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Gwnaf i ofyn yn Gymraeg hefyd.
Yn
yr adolygiad annibynnol gan Mike Shooter, fe sonnir bod eisiau
Deddf newydd i symleiddio’r ffordd y mae’r comisiynydd
yn gweithio. A ydych chi wedi gwneud rhywbeth ar hynny i benderfynu
a oes eisiau Deddf newydd ai peidio?
|
Keith
Davies: Thank you, Chair.
I will be asking in Welsh as well. In the independent review by
Mike Shooter, it is mentioned that we need new legislation in order
to simplify the way the commissioner works. Have you done anything
on that to decide whether new legislation is needed or
not?
|
[64]
Lesley
Griffiths: We’re
obviously working through the recommendations that apply to Welsh
Government at the moment. I think the roles and the powers of the
commissioners are already very well defined. Again, any new
legislation would have to be justified to show and demonstrate
there were clear benefits to the people of Wales and the children
and young people of Wales from having new legislation.
There’s certainly no room in this term’s legislative
programme. So, that would be something that, going forward, if
there was a need for it, would have to be in the next term’s
legislative programme.
|
[65]
Keith Davies: Beth
yw eich barn chi—mae yna ddau beth ychwanegol y mae’n
sôn amdano am y pwerau—i edrych ar faterion sy’n
ymwneud â phlant sydd efallai heb gael eu datganoli? A ydych
yn meddwl y dylai fod gan y comisiynydd yr hawl i edrych ar y
pethau yna hefyd? Efallai bod eisiau Deddf newydd i sicrhau
hynny.
|
Keith Davies: What is your
opinion—there are two additional points he makes here in
relation to powers—on looking at matters in relation to
children that, perhaps, haven’t been devolved? Do you think
that the commissioner should have the right to look at those things
also? Maybe we need legislation to ensure that.
|
[66]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think we fully
support that recommendation. I remember having a discussion with
the previous children’s commissioner around this because it
clearly had been something that had—perhaps
‘irritated’ is too strong a word. But I think there had
been discussions regarding this. He personally felt very strongly
about this and I think there had been discussions saying that if
the Children’s Commissioner for Wales wanted to look into
something that was reserved, they could go to the Children’s
Commissioner for England. But our commissioner felt very strongly
that that shouldn’t be the case.
|
[67]
I know
all the commissioners meet regularly. I know they have a memorandum
of understanding. I think after the—I’ll bring Elin in
here in a minute—UK Government had sort of discussed how it
could be done, i.e. the Welsh commissioner would go cap in hand, if
you like, they felt they’d done their bit and they left it at
that. But I think that’s something that we do need to pursue
and we do fully agree with that recommendation. I don’t know
if Elin wants to say something on the previous discussions with the
UK Government.
|
[68]
Ms
Gwynedd: Just to say that
we would fully agree: of course the children’s commissioner
should be able to deal with any matters relating to Welsh children.
The legislative vehicle for that has been difficult to find. We did
explore it—and we met with officials from the UK
Government—in the new legislation for the English
children’s commissioner. But the solutions that they offered
weren’t appropriate and the children’s commissioner at
the time, Keith Towler, felt that it didn’t resolve the
matter in the way that he would have wanted, and it would have been
better to leave it as it was than to go with this new arrangement
of him actually going to the English commissioner and asking
permission to deal with something that was a non-devolved matter.
He felt that that was possibly an even worse situation. So,
it’s not something that’s been resolved at the moment.
It’s something that we still want to work on and we would
fully agree with it.
|
[69]
Keith Davies: A
oes unrhyw gyfarfodydd wedi bod gyda Gweinidogion yn Lloegr ar
hyn?
|
Keith Davies: Have any meetings
taken place with Ministers in England on this?
|
[70]
Ms
Gwynedd: Can I just say
that before you were the Minister with the lead for this, the
Minister at the time wrote many letters to the UK Government
Ministers? There was a lot of turnover of UK Ministers and actually
we ended up I think writing to three or four, simply because of the
turnover of Ministers at the time. So, there was a lot of
correspondence at the time.
|
[71]
Keith Davies: Diolch. Y newid arall y mae Mike Shooter yn sôn amdano,
wrth gwrs, yw mynd ag oedran y plant rŷch chi’n mynd i
edrych arnynt lan i 25. Ydy hynny’n rhywbeth y dylai gael ei
wneud?
|
Keith
Davies: Thank you. The
other change that Mike Shooter mentions, of course, is to change
the age range of the people you’re looking at up to the age
of 25. Is that something that should be done?
|
[72]
Lesley
Griffiths: Again, I think
there was a public consultation back in 2012 regarding that. That
certainly wasn’t what was thought to be the right way. I
think it’s very well defined that a child is up to the age of
18. I wouldn’t see any reason to change that. Also, I have
discussed that with the present children’s commissioner and I
don’t think she would agree with it going up to 25
either.
|
[73]
Keith Davies: Y
peth diwethaf yn yr adran hon y mae Mike Shooter yn sôn amdano
yw y dylai, nid y comisiynydd plant yn unig, ond pob comisiynydd
arall sydd gyda ni yng Nghymru weithio o dan yr un rheolau.
Mae’r rheolau’n wahanol ar gyfer un o gymharu ag un
arall nawr. Mae’n cynnig y dylai’r Llywodraeth edrych
ar hyn a sicrhau eu bod i gyd yn gweithio yn yr un
ffordd.
|
Keith Davies: Finally, in this
section, Mike Shooter mentions that, not only the children's
commissioner, but all commissioners we have in Wales should work
under the same regulations. The rules are different for one
compared with another one now. He suggests that the Government
should look at this and ensure that they all work in the same
way.
|
[74]
Lesley
Griffiths: I have discussed
that recommendation with ministerial colleagues who are responsible
for different commissioners, and I think we all agree that the
role, the remit and functions are all very different across all the
commissioners. I think what would be better is if there was,
perhaps, greater consistency and coherence amongst the
commissioners. Another thing we’ve looked at are back-room
functions; perhaps they could do that. I think the recommendation
was for a single Act; we don’t agree with that, because of
the different roles and responsibilities.
|
[75]
Keith
Davies: Diolch, Gadeirydd.
|
Keith
Davies: Thank you,
Chair.
|
[76]
David
Rees: I’ve got
three people who want to ask supplementaries, now, so short, sharp
supplementaries. Aled, then John, then Angela.
|
[77]
Aled
Roberts: Rwyf
eisiau mynd yn ôl at bwynt gwreiddiol Keith, sef y ffaith bod
rhai materion sydd heb eu datganoli ar hyn o bryd nad ydynt o fewn
maes gwaith y comisiynydd. O beth rwy’n cofio, rhyw ddwy
flynedd yn ôl—. Rwy’n deall y pwynt rydych yn ei
wneud, bod Gweinidogion yn Lloegr yn newid trwy’r amser, ond
un o’r problemau, o’r hyn rwyf yn ei gofio, oedd, cyn
iddynt ddod â’r awgrym yma mai deddfwriaeth comisiynydd
plant Lloegr fuasai’n bwrpasol ar gyfer newid rhai
pethau—ac rwy’n meddwl roedd yna broblemau ynghylch
Comisiynydd Plant Cymru yn gorfod gofyn am ryw fath o ganiatâd
gan gomisiynydd Lloegr. Roedd yna awgrym hefyd mai’r prif
rwystr ar y pryd oedd bod Llywodraeth Prydain yn credu, achos bod
rhai o’r pwerau yma wedi’u cynnwys o fewn Deddf
Llywodraeth Cymru, eu bod nhw’n teimlo y buasai’n datod
llawer iawn o’r gwaith. A oes unrhyw drafodaethau wedi cymryd
lle ar lefel uwch na Gweinidog plant Lloegr, os ydy hwn yn fater
cyfansoddiadol, achos yn y pen draw, mae hwn yn rhywbeth y bydd yn
rhaid ei ddatrys rhyw ben?
|
Aled
Roberts: I want to go back
to Keith’s original point, which is the fact that there are
some matters that haven’t been devolved at present that are
not within the remit of the commissioner. From what I remember,
some two years ago—. I understand the point that you make,
that Ministers in England change continuously, but one of the
problems, as far as I recall, was that, before they brought forward
the suggestion that the children’s commissioner legislation
in England was the suitable vehicle to change some issues—and
I think there were problems with regard to the Children’s
Commissioner for Wales having to ask for some sort of consent from
the commissioner in England. There was a suggestion, too, that the
main barrier at the time was that the UK Government thought that,
because some of those powers were included within the Government of
Wales Act, they felt that it would undo a lot of the work. Has
there been any discussion at a higher level than the
children’s Minister for England, if this is a constitutional
matter, because, ultimately, this is something that will have to be
solved at some point?
|
[78]
Ms
Gwynedd: In terms of
looking at the constitutional arrangements, we have actually spoken
to the First Minister’s delivery unit, and they are looking
at that matter. It is, as you rightly say, more than the
children’s commissioner, isn’t it? It affects more than
just the children’s commissioner’s ability to deal with
matters in Wales. So, yes, we’ve spoken to—.
|
[79]
David
Rees: John.
|
[80]
John
Griffiths: Minister, in terms
of Mike Shooter’s review, he states that many of the
children’s organisations felt that, too often, the
commissioner was criticising existing Welsh Government policy and
taking issue with existing Welsh Government policy, rather than,
perhaps, being engaged at an earlier stage during the formulation
of policy. They felt that it would, perhaps, be more effective if
the commissioner was involved at that earlier stage and could bring
influence to bear in terms of the policy that was eventually
produced rather than, post that formulation, taking issue with it.
Do you consider that there are sufficient opportunities available
for the commissioner to have that role in policy
formulation?
|
[81]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I do think
that’s a very good recommendation. I think, to be involved as
early as possible in policy is good. I don’t think it’s
good to be standing on the sidelines criticising. I would really
welcome that—I mean, they’re experts, obviously, in
this field. So, I think it’s something that we would be very
keen to pursue and, certainly, from my initial discussions with
Sally Holland, she would be very happy to do that.
|
[82]
John
Griffiths: So, it’s not
something that has really happened up to now, then, has
it?
|
[83]
Lesley
Griffiths: Because I came in
at the tail end of Keith Towler’s tenure, if you like, it was
not something that I discussed with him—apart from a couple
of pieces of legislation going through, where we discussed his
views, and I’ll ask Elin to come in in a minute. But,
certainly, in my initial discussions with Sally, we’re all
looking at the recommendations—I’m looking at the Welsh
Government ones, and Sally’s looking at the ones for her, and
very happy to do so. I think it’s a very important role to
advise us on policy. So, I’d be very happy to have early
discussions with her. I don’t know if Elin wants to say more
about previous legislation.
|
[84]
Ms
Gwynedd: Yes, I think
it’s particularly helpful to get the children’s
commissioner’s view earlier—as early as possible. In
fact, my branch advises others on the children’s rights
impact assessment and part of that is suggesting to policy advisers
who ring us about all kinds of different policies to get involved
with the children’s commissioner very early on to gauge what
their feeling is, what their knowledge is, what they feel should be
in the policy, to make it the best policy. It just feels a little
too late to do it at the end, or at the consultation stage. So, we
would always say to colleagues across Government to contact the
children’s commissioner to get them involved as early as
possible and to get their input.
|
[85]
John
Griffiths: I think it must be
quite useful for the committee, Chair, just to be kept abreast of
developments that might enable the commissioner to have that
earlier role in the formulation of policy if anything is put in
place.
|
[86]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think that role
is already there; I think what Mike was saying is that it needs to
be enhanced, and, certainly, Sally seems very open to that, and
clearly, Keith Towler was the same. So, I’m not saying it
hasn’t been done; I think we just need to ensure it’s
done at perhaps an earlier stage. I know with the Active Travel
(Wales) Bill, for instance, that Keith Towler was very involved in
that, in relation to children’s safety walking to school. So,
they can obviously play a very important role in that.
|
[87]
Ms
Gwynedd: I think, also,
that Dr Shooter did visit other countries and see that
commissioners in other countries sometimes did get involved at a
much earlier stage, and instead of criticising at the consultation
stage, were much more involved in the policy stage, because,
ultimately, we’re all trying to get the same goal, as the
children’s commissioner would argue, in getting better policy
for children and young people. So, I think he’d seen it in
other countries; I think specifically, Scotland, and he felt that
it was a better process, with better policies because of
it.
|
[88]
John
Griffiths: Just one other
thing, Chair, would you accept that, in terms of what happens in
Scotland, we’re not involving our children’s
commissioner at such an early stage, and in such a meaningful way,
as they do there?
|
[89]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think the
recommendation was that we could improve, so I’m very happy
to take that recommendation on board, and learn from other
countries; absolutely.
|
[90]
David
Rees: Okay.
Angela.
|
[91]
Angela
Burns: Minister, I feel
you’ve skipped rather lightly over the issue of the
children’s commissioner only being responsible for young
people up to the age of 18, and I’d like to press you on this
point a bit more. Yes, I did read what Sally Holland had to say,
and also the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child
monitoring committee. However, there’s a real disparity,
because when you look across legislation in Government, we have up
to 25 in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014; we
have looked-after children in a different set; and we have the
additional learning needs Bill coming out. So, I’d like to
understand a little bit more clearly why you do not feel that it
would be appropriate to have that responsibility given to the
children’s commissioner up to the age of 25.
|
[92]
Lesley
Griffiths: The UNCRC defines
children as any person under the age of 18. I mentioned the public
consultation and I mentioned the children’s
commissioner’s view. The response to the consultation was
strongly against the idea. The vast majority of people set out very
clear reasons why the UNCRC is for children under the age of 18.
Funnily enough, when I sat on the, I think it was the vulnerable
children’s legislative competence Order committee, I remember
having this very debate then. So, because I think the
commissioner’s role is so intrinsically linked with the
UNCRC, that was the basis of that decision.
|
[93]
Angela
Burns: But may I suggest
to you that, actually, we’re allowing the UNCRC to curtail
the activities of our children’s commissioner? We were the
first nation to come up with the children’s commissioner; we
were prepared to walk the walk then when others did not; and I
don’t see why we cannot make ours a super children’s
commissioner and give them those extra powers, and look beyond the
United Nations rights of the child convention, because I think that
is slightly limiting. And, I think, in a nation like ours, where we
do have some absolutely crystal clear issues with young people,
that having somebody who can speak for those who are vulnerable and
disadvantaged up to 25 has got to be of interest to us. And I do
worry that we are using this as an excuse not to do
something.
|
[94]
Minister, you were
very robust earlier on, when all the evidence said, ‘Make
this an independent appointment’ and you were saying,
‘No, no, no, no’. But here, you are saying, ‘Oh,
well everybody says it shouldn’t be, so I’m not going
to do it’. I would like to challenge you to look at it, and I
would like to suggest to you that perhaps a way to mitigate this
would be to ask the children’s commissioner, and your
officials, to perhaps consider whether, rather than going to a
blanket 25 years old, you might look at types of children, so
perhaps children who are still in full-time education who
haven’t gone to higher education; perhaps children who are
looked after; children who do have additional needs; children who
are classified as vulnerable, rather than an age, because I do
think that she would have a very important role to play in terms of
developing policy, for example with the ALN Bill. We should be
hearing her voice and the voice of children through that, so I
would urge you, actually, just to have another look at this,
because there’s not much point in having a champion if
there’s a little chunk of young people that she can’t
actually champion.
|
10:00
|
[95]
Lesley
Griffiths: I can see what
you’re saying. I can see the merits in looking at those.
I’m very happy to have that discussion with her. It is
something that I have discussed with the children’s
commissioner and, you know, they felt the same way as I did, that
there is significant role for them up to the age of 18. We
didn’t see any reason to change it, but I’m very happy
to look at the specific groups.
|
[96]
Angela
Burns: Thank
you.
|
[97]
David
Rees: Thank you. Keith
wants to come back on one final quick point.
|
[98]
Keith
Davies: Just a short one,
really. The remit of the children’s commissioner is so wide.
On one of the recommendations I’ve got here, I thought,
‘Yes, I’d like that recommendation—I just
wondered what you feel about it—that is, that an advisory
board should be set up for the children’s commissioner, and I
would think that that advisory board should include young people as
well.
|
[99]
Lesley
Griffiths: That was one of
the recommendations for the children’s commissioner, and I
know she has a view on it. I don’t think it should be
statutory, but I think the children’s commissioner will come
forward with something on that recommendation.
|
[100]
Ms
Gwynedd: Yes, so, the
advisory board. If we were to require the children’s
commissioner to have an advisory board, I think there would be a
question on the independence from Government. However, I understand
from discussions with the commissioner that she is considering that
herself.
|
[101]
Keith
Davies: Okay, thank
you.
|
[102]
David
Rees: Thank you. We move
on now to Lynne on some other questions.
|
[103]
Lynne
Neagle: Can I just ask,
Minister, what other evidence you’ve been reviewing in order
to inform your decision making on this report?
|
[104]
Lesley
Griffiths: We’ve been
looking at each recommendation very, very carefully. I think we
need to look at the current evidence. I also have asked First
Minister’s delivery unit to look at some exploratory work
around new legislation—I think Elin referred to that before.
I’ve also been liaising with Sally Holland herself.
You’ll appreciate she was appointed in April. I thought it
was really important to give her time to come into her new role and
look at all the recommendations. So, really, looking at each
recommendation very carefully, I think some of the recommendations
were already implemented. I mentioned the good practice around
appointment, for instance, but I think we need to look at every
recommendation—I did a written statement in July to
Members—and we’re continuing to do that. I think we
also need to make sure that we review the possibility of
legislation for a future date—I mentioned that there’s
no time in the current legislative programme. I’ve had
discussions with other colleagues. You’ll be aware that, with
the future generations commissioner, we’re currently in the
process of appointing that, so I’ve had discussions with Carl
Sargeant. So, I think it’s just about looking at every
recommendation really carefully.
|
[105]
Lynne
Neagle: Was there any
outside evidence that you’re looking at as well,
then?
|
[106]
Ms
Gwynedd: The review itself
includes an awful lot of evidence. Dr Shooter did an extensive
piece of work, looking at other nations, looking at how other
places work—what worked well, what didn’t. The review
has given more than just the recommendations; it’s given us a
lot of information to think about other countries. It’s very
useful to look over the border, isn’t it, and look at other
countries? That includes Europe—I think UNICEF are involved
in that—and looking at good practice. So, the review is a
very chunky piece of research in itself, I think.
|
[107]
Lynne
Neagle: Thank
you.
|
[108]
David
Rees: Minister, the
review by Dr Shooter actually was commissioned by, and undertaken
on behalf of, the Welsh Government, and I know that you’ve
identified in your response that there are elements that fall under
the responsibility of the commissioner herself, there are some that
come for the Welsh Government, and there are some for the Assembly.
How are you monitoring how the recommendations are being delivered
upon? Because we might agree that they are different
responsibilities, but you commissioned the report, so I assume that
you have the ownership of that report and, therefore, technically,
ownership of the recommendations. So, how are you monitoring
whether those recommendations are being achieved?
|
[109]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I mentioned
I’d written to the Presiding Officer. I’ve not had any
further information from the Presiding Officer or from any
committees—I don’t know whether committees have been
looking at it; I don’t know whether the Presiding Officer has
asked this committee, for instance, to look at the recommendations.
I thought it was only fair to give the new children’s
commissioner time to work through her recommendations. I have a
meeting with her next month, on 25 November, I think, when I will
be asking for an update as to what she’s doing within the
recommendations. In relation to our own recommendations—the
Welsh Government’s recommendations—as I mentioned,
we’re looking very carefully at them. We’ve made
progress on some. For instance, raising awareness of the UNCRC;
we’ve increased the training provision for that, for
instance. So, I will update Members in relation to Welsh Government
ones; again, when I receive further information from the
children’s commissioner and the Presiding Officer, I’ll
do the same.
|
[110]
Aled
Roberts: Rwy’n derbyn eich bod wedi gwneud datganiad ysgrifenedig
ym mis Gorffennaf, ond, a yw’n fwriad gennych i wneud
datganiad mwy manwl yn mynd trwy bob un o’r argymhellion a
sut yn union byddwch yn eu gweithredu?
|
Aled
Roberts: I accept that you
have made a written statement in July, but, do you intend to make a
further more detailed statement looking at all of the
recommendations and how you will implement them?
|
[111]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, absolutely. I
will update Members, as I say, when I have further information from
the children’s commissioner and from the National Assembly
for Wales. This review wasn’t done for—. It was to look
at how we can improve the workings of the children’s
commissioner’s office. I think it’s very important, as
we bring all the recommendations together and the actions taken on
them, that Members are informed.
|
[112]
Ms
Gwynedd: Many of the
recommendations are clustered together. They sit together.
Sometimes, it’s not helpful to look at the recommendations
separately. They need to be clustered together. So, we’ve
been looking at clustering, for example, the legislation ones
together and the functions together. Possibly, in updating it might
be more helpful to respond to those clusters, rather than
necessarily to the individual recommendations, because then they
would be out of context. So, to maybe put them together next
time.
|
[113]
David
Rees: Does any other
Member have a question? No further questions on this particular
topic, Minister. We have another session with you on the compliance
report on the rights of the child. So, if it’s okay with you,
we’ll have a 10-minute break now and then we’ll move on
to the next session.
|
[114]
Lesley
Griffiths: Okay.
|
[115]
David
Rees: I suggest we have
a 10-minute break and reconvene at 10:20.
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:07 a 10:19.
The
meeting adjourned between 10:07 and 10:19.
|
Craffu ar
Waith y Gweinidog Cymunedau a Threchu Tlodi mewn perthynas
â’r Adroddiad ar Gydymffurfiaeth â’r
Ddyletswydd o dan Adran 1 o Fesur Hawliau Plant a Phobl Ifanc
(Cymru) 2011
Scrutiny of the Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty on
the Report on the Compliance with the Duty under Section 1 of the
Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011
|
[116]
David
Rees: Good morning.
Could I welcome everyone back to this morning’s session of
the Children, Young People and Education Committee? We move on to
the next item on the agenda, which is an evidence session with the
Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty in relation to
compliance with the UNCRC and the due regard duty. We will go
straight into questions, Minister, if that is okay with yourself.
We will start with Angela.
|
[117]
Angela
Burns: Thank you very
much, Chair. Minister, this is a much more general question, and
it’s asking you for a strategic view on whether or not you
believe that the Children’s Commissioner for Wales actually
has enough physical resource, in terms of funding and people, to
effectively scrutinise Welsh Government compliance with the United
Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
|
[118]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I do, is the
short answer. Clearly, we are in very difficult financial times.
I’m probably 100 per cent positive that the children’s
commissioner will probably come and say she could do with more
funding and resources, of course. But, certainly, I had discussions
with regard to this with Keith Towler before he left, and I think
they were very happy with the resources needed. I know she’s
looking at the way her office is structured; obviously, you would
expect a new commissioner—. In fact, I met her on the train
coming back from Swansea a couple of weeks ago and, clearly, that
is something that’s being looked at. She’s got an
office in north Wales and I know she’s looking very
much—as are all public organisations—at better use of
resources.
|
[119]
Angela
Burns: I know that our
children’s commissioner is quite unusual in that she does
casework or there’s an element of casework. We spoke in the
earlier session about the requirement to try to involve the
children’s commissioner much more in policy development, and
now we talk about the compliance report on the rights of the child,
which, I have to say, I think is something that Wales should be
very proud of—that we adopted this so early on. But, all of
it—and I know how small, relatively speaking, her office is,
and I’m certainly not making a pitch on her behalf, but I
just—. When I read the compliance report, I did have to ask
myself just how well she, we and others are really able to dig into
the Welsh Government to do this scrutiny and to ensure that we are
complying with the rights of the child. I don’t know the
rights of the child to the absolute nth degree, but there are some
areas, like budgeting, and I know when Lynne and I sat on a
previous committee, we looked at how budgeting for children’s
requirements was something that the Welsh Government signally
failed to do because it had to be across the piece. There’s
no distinct Minister for children; there’s no distinct
portfolio where everything to do with children sort of sits, if you
like.
|
[120]
So, I
just have to challenge you again as to whether or not you really
think that this is more than cosmetic and that there is an ability
for all organisations to really squirrel in and to see, and also
because it’s about compliance. So, it’s not a proactive
thing. It’s not about sort of saying, ‘Let’s
influence policy, let’s come up with this idea or that idea,
or lobby you with a particular issue that we have’; this is
about just ensuring that we’re meeting sort of standards. I
do have that concern, when I read the report, that it was actually,
that there might be—and I don’t know how to say this
nicely, so I don’t mean to be unkind—but there was
perhaps a small element of tokenism in it. I would just like your
assurance on that.
|
[121]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well,
certainly—. I’m trying to think if I’ve had
discussions outside with other organisations. As I say, I mentioned
that I’d had the discussion with Keith Towler and that
wasn’t an issue that was raised with me. I don’t know,
Elin, if you’ve had any discussions with anyone in relation
to that.
|
[122]
Ms
Gwynedd: We’ve spoken
before about how the commissioner arranges her office and
prioritises her staff. It’s a matter for her in terms of
funding and whether she has enough funding. I know that the Public
Accounts Committee have met with her and, as a result, she’s
put things like reserves policies in place. I don’t ever
remember the children’s commissioner coming to us asking for
additional funding in any way to take this matter forward. I know
that she has a policy team that actually focuses very much on the
very thing that you were raising there; you know, squirreling in
and looking really into policy, getting involved at a much earlier
stage. Of course, it’s not just the children’s
commissioner; it’s also children’s organisations that
we were work with, such as Save the Children and Children in
Wales—you know, all these other organisations that have an
interest—and we meet with them regularly to make sure that
they’re involved in our work to do with children’s
rights.
|
[123]
Angela
Burns: Thank
you.
|
[124]
David
Rees: Simon?
|
[125]
Simon Thomas: Os
gallaf ofyn, Weinidog, a ydych chi’n credu bod y Mesur sydd
gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, gan gofio bod y Mesur wedi’i basio
mewn cyd-destun lle’r oedd y Cynulliad yn deddfu’n
wahanol iawn i’r system bresennol, yn rhoi ystod o bwerau
angenrheidiol a’r cynsail deddfwriaethol angenrheidiol
i’r gwaith ar draws y Llywodraeth ac wedyn i waith y
comisiynydd hefyd yn adolygu’r gwaith hwnnw?
|
Simon
Thomas: If I can ask,
Minister, do you believe that the Measure that we currently have,
remembering that the Measure was passed in a context where the
Assembly legislated in a very different way to the current system,
give the necessary range of powers and the necessary legislative
basis for cross-Government work and then for the work of the
commissioner in reviewing the Government’s work?
|
[126]
Lesley
Griffiths: Sorry. I
didn’t get the end bit.
|
[127]
Simon Thomas: A
ydych chi’n meddwl bod y sefyllfa gyfreithiol bresennol
statudol yn rhoi’r pŵer i chi i sicrhau cydymffurfiaeth
ar draws y Llywodraeth, a’r ystod iawn o bwerau i’r
comisiynydd i ddal y Llywodraeth i gyfrif—ac awdurdodau
eraill, ond dim ond craffu ar y Llywodraeth yr ydym ni yn y fan
hon?
|
Simon
Thomas: Do you believe
that the current legislative statutory situation gives you the
powers to ensure that there is compliance across Government, and
gives the commissioner the range of powers to hold the Government
to account—and other authorities, of course, but we are only
scrutinising the Government here?
|
[128]
Lesley
Griffiths: Sorry, yes, I do,
and, certainly, the discussions I’ve had with ministerial
colleagues have reassured me on that point. Again, I’ve only
had, you know, very tentative discussions with the current
commissioner about it, but it’s not something that
she’s raised as a concern.
|
[129]
Simon Thomas: A
ydy hi wedi codi gyda chi, felly, yr hyn mae hi wedi codi mewn
tystiolaeth, sef bod y ffordd mae hi’n gorfod craffu ar y
Llywodraeth yn ddull lletchwith, braidd? Mae hi’n cael ei
harwain i mewn i graffu ar y gwaith rŷch chi’n ei wneud
drwy gwynion a gwaith achos, o bryd i’w gilydd, edrych ar
gam-arfer neu broblemau, efallai, fel rŷm ni eisoes wedi
trafod, ac, efallai yn hwyr yn y dydd, bydd yn gweld bod
polisi’n datblygu i mewn i ddeddfwriaeth a ddylai fod yna
ystyriaeth wedi cael ei gwneud yn gynharach yn y broses yna. Hynny
yw, mae’n cael ei harwain gan y broses, i raddau helaeth,
oherwydd strwythur y ddeddfwriaeth, yn hytrach na chael ei harwain
gan ddull cyd-destun—megis prif arolygydd Estyn, er
enghraifft, mewn cyd-destun arall. Byddai rhywun fel yna yn cael ei
arwain gan bwerau eang i edrych ar arfer da, edrych ar y ffordd y
mae pethau’n cael eu gwneud, ac wedyn yn ymyrryd mewn ffordd
fwy strategol.
|
Simon
Thomas: Has she raised
with you, therefore, what she’s raised in evidence, which is
that the way that she has to scrutinise the Government is a
slightly cumbersome way of doing it? She is led into scrutiny of
the work that you do through complaints and casework, from time to
time, looking at malpractice or problems, perhaps, as we’ve
already discussed, and, perhaps late in the day, she will see
policy being developed into legislation and there should have been
consideration earlier on in that process. She is led, therefore, by
the process, to a great extent, because of the structure of the
legislation, rather than being led in a contextual manner, in the
same way as Estyn’s chief inspector, to give an example from
another context. Someone like that is led by wide-ranging powers to
look at good practice, to look at the way that things are done, and
then to intervene in a more strategic manner.
|
[130]
Beth
sydd ar goll, yn fy marn i, o waith y comisiynydd hyd yma
yw’r gorolwg strategol yma o bryd i’w gilydd.
Mae’n cael ei harwain yn ormodol gan y problemau, yn hytrach
nag ei bod hi’n edrych ar y gorwel a gweld beth yw’r
tirlun ar gyfer gwaith hawliau plant.
|
What’s
missing, in my opinion, from the commissioner’s work up until
now is this strategic overview from time to time. She is being led
too much by the problems, rather than looking at the whole picture
and seeing what the landscape is in terms of children’s
rights work.
|
[131]
Lesley
Griffiths: As I say,
it’s not something that she’s raised with me. I am due
to meet her again—I’m not sure if you were here when I
said I’m due to meet her again next month. So, you know, if
it’s something she wants to raise with me, she can. She
hasn’t raised the fact that she thinks further primary
legislation is required, for instance, but I suppose it’s
quite early days in her tenure, really.
|
[132]
Simon Thomas: Ocê. So, ar hyn o bryd, nid ydych chi o’r
farn bod angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol pellach ac nid yw hi wedi
codi hynny gyda chi. A oes gyda chi, felly—. Beth sydd
gennych chi o ran tystiolaeth a sicrwydd bod y Mesur presennol wedi
newid yr agwedd tu fewn i’r Llywodraeth ac wedi newid y
dulliau o lunio polisi? Rydym wedi clywed rhywfaint eisoes gan eich
swyddogion am y broses yna, ond a ydych chi wedi bod mewn sefyllfa
lle rŷch chi wedi casglu’r wybodaeth yna ac yn gallu
profi a dangos i’ch cyd-weithwyr yn y Llywodraeth,
‘Wel, dyma werth dilyn y Mesur; dyma’r gwahaniaeth
rydym ni wedi ei wneud drwy’r Mesur hwn’?
|
Simon
Thomas: Okay. So, at
present, you’re not of the opinion that there needs to be
further primary legislation and she hasn’t raised that with
you. Do you therefore—. What do you have in terms of evidence
and certainty that the current Measure has changed attitudes within
the Government and has changed the methods of forming policy?
We’ve heard from your officials about that process already,
but have you been in a position where you have gathered all of that
information together and can prove and show to your colleagues in
Government, ‘Well, this is the value of implementing the
Measure; this is the difference we’ve made through this
Measure’?
|
[133]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I think one
of the things is that the CRIA process is facilitating greater
scrutiny, for instance, particularly in legislative scrutiny, I
think. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is a
classic example of that. I think, very importantly, officials have
taken, you know—. A great deal—I think it’s about
3,000 now—of officials have had online training in relation
to the process. We’ve had other organisations asking if they
can replicate the training. So, I think the way that decisions are
taken—. We’ve seen evidence of better scrutiny.
I’ve written—somebody raised before, I’m not sure
if it was Angela, that there isn’t a specific Minister for
children. Well, you know, I’m the Minister for children,
I’ve got lead responsibility, but issues around children are
for everybody, and I have written to ministerial colleagues,
certainly once, if not twice, reminding them of that responsibility
as they form decisions.
|
[134]
Simon
Thomas: A
ydy’r materion hyn yn cael eu trafod yn y Cabinet yn benodol
fel materion plant?
|
Simon
Thomas: Are these matters
discussed within the Cabinet specifically as matters relating to
children?
|
[135]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I’m
sure I’ve raised them at different times, but, as I say, I
have specifically written to Ministers to remind them of those
duties also.
|
[136]
Simon Thomas: Y
cwestiwn olaf jest ar hwn yw: pa waith a ydych chi’n ei wneud
fel Llywodraeth i edrych tuag at y dyfodol? Rwy’n deall bod y
Cenhedloedd Unedig yn adolygu’r broses o dan y cynllun
hawliau plant a’u bod nhw hefyd yn cadw’r peth dan
ystyriaeth. Ond, wrth gwrs, y
wladwriaeth sy’n barti yw’r Deyrnas Gyfunol, felly, sut ydych chi fel
Llywodraeth Cymru yn dylanwadu ar y broses yna? Achos, am wn i,
byddech chi’n dweud bod arfer da fan hyn yng Nghymru
a’n bod ni eisiau dylanwadu ar y broses yna ond hefyd dysgu
oddi wrth hynny i wneud yn siŵr bod unrhyw newidiadau ar lefel
y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn adlewyrchu’r profiad yng Nghymru
a’n bod ni hefyd yn gwybod yn gynnar beth sydd yn debygol o
ddigwydd fel ein bod ni’n gallu mireinio fan hyn beth
sy’n digwydd.
|
Simon
Thomas: The final question
just on this point is: what work do you do as a Government to look
to the future? I understand that the UN are reviewing the process
under the children’s rights scheme and that they are also
keeping this matter under consideration. But, of course, the state
party is the UK, so, how do you as the Welsh Government influence
that process? Because, as far as I’m aware, you would say
that there is good practice in Wales and we would want to influence
that process, but also to learn from that to ensure that any
changes on the UN level do reflect experiences in Wales and that we
also know very early on what’s likely to happen so that we
can refine what we do here.
|
[137]
Lesley
Griffiths: Obviously, the
legislation does allow us to revise the children’s rights
scheme at any time. It was recently revised, I think, just before I
came into portfolio last year. You mentioned the UK state party;
that’s due to be scrutinised next June in 2016, so, I would
imagine—. The next administration, obviously, will perhaps
revise the scheme or review the scheme at that time.
|
10:30
|
[138]
David
Rees: Aled, on this
point.
|
[139]
Aled
Roberts: Rydych newydd gyfeirio at yr asesiad effaith ar hawliau plant
wrth ymateb i Simon. Rwy’n derbyn bod y gyllideb yn mynd i
fod yn broblem eleni achos yr adolygiad ar lefel Brydeinig, nad
yw’n dod allan tan ddiwedd y mis, ond llynedd mi oedd yr
asesiad yn rhan o asesiad strategol ehangach ar gydraddoldeb yn
hytrach nag asesiad penodol ar hawliau plant. A yw’n fwriad
gan y Llywodraeth eleni i gyhoeddi asesiad ar yr effaith ar hawliau
plant fel rhan o’r gyllideb drafft? Mi oedd sôn bod
hynny’n cael ei hystyried o’r blaen, ac nid wyf yn
gwybod os ydy hynny wedi cael ei ddatblygu o gwbl o ran syniad yn y
Llywodraeth.
|
Aled
Roberts: You have just
referred to the children’s rights impact assessment in
responding to Simon. I accept that the budget will be a problem
this year because of the review at a UK level, which won’t be
released until the end of the month, but last year the assessment
was part of a wider strategic equality assessment rather than a
specific assessment on children’s rights. Does the Government
intend this year to publish a children’s rights impact
assessment as part of the draft budget? It was mentioned that that
was considered previously, and I’m not sure whether that is
being developed at all as an idea within the Government.
|
[140]
David
Rees: Minister, we will
be having questions on children’s rights impact assessments
afterwards, so we will move on to that. But if you answer this one
point and then we’ll move on to that.
|
[141]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think probably
not. I think we’ll do the same as last year. Obviously, we
have got a problem this year with the comprehensive spending review
being so late, but I think we will have a whole-impact
assessment.
|
[142]
David
Rees: Okay, so
we’ll move on to children’s rights impact assessments.
Lynne.
|
[143]
Lynne
Neagle: Thanks, Chair. One
of the things that the committee has consistently raised with
successive children’s Ministers is the need to publish all
the CRIAs, which is something that still isn’t happening.
Have you got any comment on that, and is it your plan to actually
change that policy and ensure that all CRIAs are routinely
published?
|
[144]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, prior to my
coming into post—and I remember being a Minister with
responsibility for doing this—all Ministers agreed to make
CRIAs publicly available. I think this was very much welcomed by
children’s organisations and stakeholders. We’ve not
been prescriptive about when a CRIA document should be published
and, if it’s in relation to legislation, I think it’s
much better for it to be alongside that legislation. It’s
very important that CRIAs aren’t taken out of context. I
think, if members of the public want to find a CRIA, for
instance—and I do accept, because I’ve looked, that it
was difficult to find. So, we have taken steps to make it more
easily available. So, for instance, we’ve got a new web page
now and officials have contacted Google, because if you Googled it,
which I did, you came up with something very out of date. So, now,
we’ve been in touch with Google, and you would come to the
correct page.
|
[145]
You’ll be
aware we’ve got CRIA newsletters, and people can sign up to
CRIA newsletters and, again, it was quite difficult to find where
you could sign up for that CRIA newsletter by e-mail. So,
we’ve made that much simpler now. So, for legislative
process, we’ve got a much more prescriptive way forward, and
the CRIA is published on the web page that relates to that piece of
legislation. In relation to non-legislative decisions, all CRIAs
are listed on a newsletter, and they’re all publicly
available.
|
[146]
Lynne
Neagle: I welcome the
assurances about the legislation, as I think that’s a step
forward, but is it something you would consider, then, just to
routinely publish the CRIAs at the same time as they are completed,
for everything?
|
[147]
Lesley
Griffiths: I’m not sure
that would be helpful, because we just publish so much information.
I think it’s really important, as I say, not to take it out
of context, but it is all publicly available.
|
[148]
Ms
Gwynedd: Also, just to say
that, the CRIAs, we encourage them to be live documents. We
encourage them to be updated regularly as the policy
develops—so, to publish at a certain point. The other reason
we’re making them publicly available is that we can give
people the latest version when they ask. Policy is not like
legislation; there’s not the same timetable. So, we can give
the latest version on request.
|
[149]
Lynne
Neagle: Thanks.
|
[150]
David
Rees: John.
|
[151]
John
Griffiths: Could I ask,
Chair, what sort of relationship there is with the future
generations Act, for example? It seems to me that, if we are going
to take a long-term view, we’d be very much thinking about
early years in terms of where we spend money and Government policy
and strategy, because I think it’s very well established that
the early years are absolutely vital for the whole life course. It
seems to me that there should be some sort of relationship, I
think, between the ambitions of the future generations Act and
children’s rights impact assessments and the generality,
really, of Welsh Government policy and how it’s evaluated and
performed.
|
[152]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, absolutely.
Obviously, the future generations Act has the goals, and it’s
very important that we take those into consideration. I think the
way that the CRIAs have been done—and Aled mentioned the
budgets, about having the impact assessment—. I think the
whole point of the CRIAs is to change the culture of how Ministers
come to decisions, and the thinking. I would like to see them
evolve so that they are included with all the impact assessments,
in the way that the budgets are. I wouldn’t imagine—I
don’t know—that, five years down the line, CRIAs would
be separate. I think it would evolve into a whole thing. I think
the future generations Act will enhance that, really.
|
[153]
David
Rees: Do we know whether
they are changing the culture? Because, clearly the CRIAs are there
to assess the impact of any decision upon the child, and you say
you want to ensure that’s part and parcel of the normal
process, effectively, but do we know whether they actually are
achieving the outcome?
|
[154]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think it is, but
from the point of view that it’s facilitating greater
scrutiny. So yes, I do think it is having an impact, and the fact
that all Ministers have to think about it I think is really
important. But I would hope that, in the future, as I say, it just
becomes the norm.
|
[155]
David
Rees: I’ll move on
to questions on the oversight of the duty to have due regard.
Suzy.
|
[156]
Suzy
Davies: Yes, thank you. I
want to ask you a little bit about internal processes, but I want
to go back to a point raised by Angela, if I may, to start with,
about this idea of a discrete children’s Minister. I
appreciate you have responsibility for that, but you have
responsibility for an awful lot of other things as well.
|
[157]
Lesley
Griffiths: I do.
|
[158]
Suzy
Davies: Mike Shooter, in
his review, said that
|
[159]
‘although we
now have plenty of law related to children’s rights, we seem
to be losing the structures to ensure their
implementation.’
|
[160]
So,
it’s not a criticism at all of the current position—of
your position, if you like—but it’s identifying an
opportunity to bring everything together in one place. Do you think
there’s merit in that view? Particularly from the point of
view of outside bodies trying to squirrel in, as we say.
|
[161]
Lesley
Griffiths: No, I don’t.
I know you don’t accept it is a criticism; I’m sure
we’d be criticised. Imagine if we had a Minister for
everything. You couldn’t. Your portfolios have to involve
more than one thing. Obviously, I am the Minister with
responsibility for children, but it’s everybody’s
business. It’s every Minister’s business. But I think
that we’re small enough as a Government that organisations do
know the right person to go to, so I’ve never had that
criticism from an outside organisation.
|
[162]
Suzy
Davies: I just wanted to
know whether there’d been something like that, so
that’s quite helpful to know. Bearing in mind that all
Cabinet members have a responsibility to ensure that due regard is
observed, you mentioned earlier that you remember writing two
letters to Ministers to make sure that they’d done this.
I’m sure that there’s more to it that that.
|
[163]
Lesley
Griffiths: Oh yes.
|
[164]
Suzy
Davies: I’m just
wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the two teams
that are responsible for helping you in this, and what they
actually do.
|
[165]
Lesley
Griffiths: I do have two
teams. I have the group, the implementation group, and the group
that looks at the—
|
[166]
Ms
Cassidy: The
children’s rights group.
|
[167]
Lesley
Griffiths: The
children’s rights group, yes. I’ll ask Elin to say a
bit more about that, I think.
|
[168]
Ms
Gwynedd: My branch is about
driving children’s rights forward, ensuring that the
training’s in place, and ensuring that we are a point of
contact to support and enable people to think. The prompts in the
children’s rights impact assessment help, and my team updates
the CRIA. For example, we’ve just updated it to include a
prompt about child poverty, and to strengthen that much more,
working with the child poverty team. So, in our job, we’re
constantly on the phone to people, constantly meeting people face
to face to just look at policy, to ask the right questions to
enable people to think for themselves. Our role is not to say that
somebody’s done a CRIA well, or not well. It’s for the
policy leads to develop it themselves, so that the culture does
change in the longer term and they don’t become dependent on
certain teams.
|
[169]
The
children’s rights scheme group is from across Government, and
it is key people in the operations team and in training.
They’re the central hub to different groups of people across
Government, and they’re the champions for children and young
people. They go to their own team meetings, they meet with their
own directors, they arrange training that we can attend, or they
arrange training that we would have subcontracted for them to
attend. So, having those in the different groups has enabled us to
gather the information from across Government for the compliance
report, for example. That’s—
|
[170]
Suzy
Davies: Have you
met—sorry—have you met any, I don’t mean
belligerent resistance here, but a sort of benign ignorance, in
some departments? I’m not asking you to say who they are, but
some that are slightly less easy to work with, shall we
say.
|
[171]
Ms
Gwynedd: Well,
surprisingly, no. I think once you show people the UNCRC and the
intention of the UNCRC, they probably consider themselves,
‘Well, we have children, I know children’, and,
actually, once you show them the intention of the UNCRC,
there’s very little resistance actually. I think it’s
more of, ‘Well, help me to do it then; show me what to do;
talk me through this’, and that’s our role to do
that.
|
[172]
Suzy
Davies: Okay. So, we
should see this cultural change pretty much mainstream fairly soon,
I would hope.
|
[173]
Ms
Gwynedd: I think that the
compliance report captures a lot of that.
|
[174]
Suzy
Davies: Okay. I’ve
got a reason why I asked that, because it’s a point, I know,
that has concerned Assembly Members before, that while this place,
and I include the Welsh Government in this, is very aware of its
UNCRC due regard obligations, many of our public bodies don’t
directly sign up to the UNCRC, and yet they are asked to deliver
Government policy, and a lot of that is supported by the Assembly.
There’s a point there where all the due regard in the world
at this end of operations can completely disappear once it goes
into public services. So, how much of a role do those two bodies
have in oversight of the delivery of Government policy by third
parties, and the role of the due regard then?
|
[175]
Ms
Gwynedd: I don’t feel
really that it is our role. As long as it’s taken on board by
Government, and it’s taken on board in policies, and
therefore in legislation, and subsequently in regulations and the
guidance that follows to public bodies, then, in effect, it filters
through, and then there’s a role for Government to monitor
that guidance, to monitor the implementation.
|
[176]
Suzy
Davies: I completely
accept what you say, but then we go to that critical point that you
just mentioned: how does Welsh Government then monitor the delivery
of this myriad of policies and legislation, to make sure that the
due regard is actually observed by the people who are doing the
delivery?
|
[177]
Ms
Gwynedd: There’s no
due regard duty on public bodies, as such.
|
[178]
Suzy
Davies: I appreciate that,
but the due regard filters down, as you say. They will be observing
it, because they almost have to anyway, but I suspect that’s
not happening, and I’m wondering whether there’s been
any work done on that at Government level, to make sure that when
you’re asking, let’s say a local authority, to carry
out a particular piece of policy work, that the due regard is
actually observed by them.
|
[179]
Ms
Gwynedd: I would say that,
again, with the future generations Act, and the fact that
there’s new guidance going to out to public service boards,
as they will become, the UNCRC features very much in that. The
public service boards, as you will know, is a collection of chief
executives and leaders in public services coming together for the
purposes of making lives better in an area, and the UNCRC features
very much in this. And I think that the monitoring would happen
through that, to a large extent.
|
[180]
Suzy
Davies: Of course, we need
to make sure that guidance is observed; that it’s not just
sitting there on a piece of paper.
|
[181]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think the work
we did in revising the tackling child poverty strategy also took
that into consideration, and also the work we’re doing about
raising awareness of the UNCRC. Local authorities, for instance,
have been very involved. Now, I can’t affect local
authorities’ policies, but I think it’s really
important that we offer them that option of training, and I think
they’ve taken it up—I think all 22 now have taken it
up.
|
[182]
Suzy
Davies: That’s
encouraging.
|
[183]
Ms
Gwynedd: Yes; local
authorities deliver a lot of training on the UNCRC. We’ve
visited all 22 and it’s surprising how much they get the word
out there, and, so, our role is to provide them with resources and
support to do that.
|
[184]
Suzy
Davies: I’m
encouraged by that; perhaps the take-up is slightly inconsistent,
but thank you very much for your answer; it’s very
helpful.
|
[185]
David
Rees: Aled.
|
[186]
Aled
Roberts: Rwyf
eisiau edrych ar ffigurau hyfforddiant yn y papur rydych wedi ei
roi ger ein bron ni. A ydych chi’n siomedig o gwbl efo ymateb
rhai o’r sectorau yma? Rwyf yn edrych yn arbennig ar
chwaraeon, lle dim ond dau sydd wedi mynychu hyfforddiant ers
Rhagfyr 2013, wyneb yn wyneb. A oes unrhyw ofynion gan Lywodraeth
Cymru ar gyrff sydd yn derbyn arian cyhoeddus eu bod nhw’n
sicrhau, hyd yn oed os nad ydyn nhw’n defnyddio’r
hyfforddiant rydych chi’n ei gynnig, fod eu staff nhw yn
ymwybodol o ofynion y confensiwn?
|
Aled
Roberts: I want to look at
training figures in the papers you’ve put before us. Are you
disappointed at all with the response of some of these sectors?
I’m looking specifically at sport, where only two have
attended training since December 2013—that’s
face-to-face training. Are there any requirements by the Welsh
Government on bodies that receive public funding that they do
ensure, even if they don’t use the training that you provide,
that their staff are aware of the requirements of the
convention?
|
[187]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, that’s
something that we’re certainly looking at. We have enhanced
the training. I know there’s a new programme of training
going out between now and Christmas. I’ve just, not long ago,
announced, I think it was £120,000 for three years, to provide
further training, and I do think that if you are in receipt of
public funding, then you certainly should attend the training.
It’s certainly something that I’ve been encouraging
everybody to do. Do you want to say anything about sport in
particular?
|
[188]
Ms
Gwynedd: I think if
you’re referring to—. I’m not
sure—
|
[189]
Aled
Roberts: Tudalen 74 yn y pecyn.
[190]
|
Aled
Roberts: Page 74 in the
pack.
|
[191]
Ms
Gwynedd: Training for
officials internally.
|
[192]
Aled
Roberts: No, this
is—
|
[193]
David
Rees: It’s page 3
of your submission. The table.
|
[194]
Aled
Roberts: Niferoedd sydd wedi mynychu hyfforddiant. Sector, maen
nhw’n sôn amdano, rwy’n meddwl.
|
Aled
Roberts: Numbers who have
attended training. They’re talking about sectors, I
think.
|
10:45
|
[195]
Lesley
Griffiths: Sectors.
|
[196]
Ms
Gwynedd: Yes, so, actually,
I think it does refer to internal training for different sectors
within the Welsh Government, and while that's formal
training—
|
[197]
Aled
Roberts: Na,
nid wyf yn meddwl mai hynny—. Rwy’n meddwl mai’r
ffigwr nesaf sy’n sôn am staff Llywodraeth Cymru.
Rwy’n meddwl bod hwn yn sôn am y sector gwirfoddol, a
dim ond dau gorff chwaraeon sydd wedi ymgymryd ag unrhyw
hyfforddiant. I feddwl eu bod nhw yn darparu lot o wasanaethau ar
gyfer plant a phobl ifanc, mae hynny’n siomedig iawn, a dweud
y gwir.
|
Aled
Roberts: No, I don't think
that that's—. I think that the next figure mentions staff
within Welsh Government. I think that this is about the voluntary
sector, and there are only two sports bodies that have undertaken
any training. To think that they provide a lot of services for
children and young people, that's very disappointing, to be
honest.
|
[198]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, it is
disappointing.
|
[199]
Ms
Gwynedd: But, as the
Minister says, we've got this new programme of training that's
going out now. It's three years, its sector specific, and I think
that sports is one of the sectors that they will be focusing
on.
|
[200]
Aled
Roberts: Os
ydym ni’n symud at Lywodraeth Cymru ei hun, nid yw’n
glir o’r ffigwr rydych chi wedi ei baratoi ar dudalen
4—. Mae hyn yn dangos y ffigurau rhwng 1 Mai a 30 Ebrill
2015, lle rydych chi’n dweud bod dros 1,000 wedi derbyn
hyfforddiant wyneb-yn-wyneb, ond tri yn y gwasanaethau cyfreithiol
sydd wedi derbyn hyfforddiant. A ydy hynny o achos bod rhan helaeth
ohonyn nhw wedi derbyn hyfforddiant cyn Mai 2014, neu a oes yna
broblem mewn rhai adrannau?
|
Aled
Roberts: If we are moving
towards Welsh Government itself, it's not clear from the figure
that you've prepared on page 4—. This shows the figures
between 1 May and 30 April 2015, where you say that over 1,000 have
received face-to-face training, but only three from legal services
have received training. Is that because a majority of them have had
training prior to May 2014, or is there a problem in certain
departments?
|
[201]
Ms
Gwynedd: The whole of the
legal team actually have done bespoke training on the UNCRC, so, in
terms of the information that you have in the paper, it was done
after the full Measure came into effect.
|
[202]
David
Rees: And that is
mentioned in that paragraph. It says this is in addition to bespoke
training, in the last sentence.
|
[203]
Aled
Roberts: Yes.
|
[204]
David
Rees: Okay, thank you.
Keith.
|
[205]
Keith Davies: I
ddilyn lan ar beth roedd Aled yn ei ddweud, un o’r pethau
rŷm ni’n edrych arnyn nhw nawr yw hyfforddi athrawon,
gan edrych ar gyrsiau dwy flynedd ac yn y blaen. Sut allwn ni
sicrhau bod hawliau plant yn cael eu cynnwys nawr yn hyfforddiant
athrawon, achos rŷm ni’n sôn am filoedd ar filoedd
wedyn?
|
Keith
Davies: Just to follow up
what Aled was saying there, one of the things that we're looking at
now is the training of teachers, looking at two-year courses and so
on. How can we ensure that children's rights are included now in
training for teachers, because you're talking about thousands upon
thousands then, aren't we?
|
[206]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, that's a
discussion that I'm having with the Minister for Education and
Skills. I know we’ve put something on the hub now, as well,
for current teachers, and we're getting a lot of hits on that, but
those are ongoing discussions, because I think it is really
important that we get out as much as we can. It's not just the
responsibility of Welsh Government to raise awareness of the UNCRC;
I think it's down to everyone, the children's commissioner
included.
|
[207]
Keith Davies: Diolch yn fawr. Gallem ni fynd ymlaen, oni allem, ac hyfforddi
pobl sy’n gweithio yn y maes iechyd ac yn y
blaen—rŷch chi’n gwybod, pobl sy’n delio
â phlant yn gyffredinol.
|
Keith
Davies: Thank you very
much. We could take it further, couldn't we, and train people who
work in health and so on—you know, people who deal with
children in general.
|
[208]
Ms
Gwynedd: On the training,
the Minister has agreed to include specific sectors, and health and
education were in those sectors. The intention is to try and
influence universities and university lecturers to get the initial
training, as well as to catch up with those. So, it’s sector
specific. Instead of offering it to anybody who wants to be on it,
it's actually trying to drill into those sectors and influence
them, and education and health are in there.
|
[209]
Lesley
Griffiths: We've also
refreshed the online training as well, which is very easily
accessible. So, you know, we are really trying very hard to raise
awareness of the UNCRC. I did take that on board when I came into
portfolio, and we have done some considerable work—as I say,
a new programme. I think the new programme was
published—certainly, if it hasn’t been published, it
will be this week—for the next period up until
Christmas.
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[210]
David
Rees: Minister,
obviously, it's very pleasing to hear you saying about the training
that's going on with regard to this, and we have received
information of the UNCRC’s monitoring group’s view that
there is perhaps a lack of strategic approach to that. You've
identified the sectors aspect; is that another strategic approach
you're taking to training, that you are going through the sector
approach and that, after the sectors you have now, there'll be
other sectors to follow?
|
[211]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, absolutely.
I'm not really sure about the basis of where that kind of view came
from, because it covers everything. It covers communication, it
covers marketing, it covers training, participation, we've got
materials, we've got resources, we do bespoke, we do sector
specific; so, I'm not really sure what the basis of that view was
on.
|
[212]
David
Rees: And can I ask
also—. You’ve mentioned online training. I appreciate
online training is a very important tool, but we need to ensure
that online training is actually successful and assessed properly,
and we know that people are actually benefiting from it, which is
partly face-to-face. So, how much of the online training is
followed up by face-to-face training to ensure that individuals
understand the issues around the UNCRC?
|
[213]
Ms
Gwynedd: The online
training is both internal and external. It’s to give a taste,
and it’s for people to realise what the UNCRC is. It’s
to begin the journey. We would hope that people would follow it up.
Certainly, the face-to-face training is then available for them to
go on, and there’s a prompt in their online training for them
to look out for that. The internal one: again, it’s very
well-used online training across the board, not just on the UNCRC.
It’s just a way of learning that we use now in the civil
service. Again, they are prompted, if they would want to, to go for
full face-to-face training. But, I think that just to say that the
face-to-face statistics don’t necessarily reflect the full
extent of the one-to-one and team meetings that we attend, and that
we speak to people individually, as groups, as legislation
teams.
|
[214]
David
Rees: There’s
always informal training that happens as a consequence of
that.
|
[215]
Ms
Gwynedd: Yes.
|
[216]
David
Rees: I appreciate that.
What I wanted to focus on was that, if you’re doing online
training, how are we monitoring it and how are we monitoring their
progress on it? That’s the important aspect I want to show.
You say there’s a tick box, effectively, to say if you want
more, but are we monitoring the progress of people from
that?
|
[217]
Ms
Gwynedd: The online
training for external people to the Government has a monitoring
tool on it that allows us to provide the figures that you were
mentioning before: to say what sector they’re in and how they
found the training and to give us some feedback on it. It’s
quite difficult to capture it. Not everybody fills it in, as you
know yourself when you do online things.
|
[218]
David
Rees: I always fill them
in. [Laughter.]
|
[219]
Ms
Gwynedd: But, we are trying
to capture it and trying to then react to it.
|
[220]
Lesley
Griffiths: I do think
we’ve made significant progress in this area. I think this is
the one area where we have.
|
[221]
David
Rees: John.
|
[222]
John
Griffiths: Yes, on that,
Chair: we had a statement yesterday—didn’t
we—from the Deputy Minister for Skills and Technology in
terms of youth work. I think the attempt is to try and build a more
consistent and coherent approach across Wales, bearing in mind the
great funding difficulties that everyone faces, including local
authorities—to allow flexibility at the same time for local
approaches, but within a general strategy and framework, I think,
Chair. So, given that there is going to be that push and that
effort from Welsh Government, I think that training and awareness
of children’s rights must be a central part of that. So, have
those links been made?
|
[223]
Ms
Gwynedd: Yes, we work very
closely with the youth work team; it’s probably one of the
places that we work the closest with. They work directly with
people who work directly with lots and lots of young people across
the voluntary and statutory sectors, so, yes, we work very
closely.
|
[224]
David
Rees: Okay. Do any other
Members have questions? Simon.
|
[225]
Simon Thomas: Jest
cwpl o gwestiynau, os caf i, Weinidog. Rwyf wedi bod yn darllen
adroddiad y grŵp monitro ar y confensiwn, a gafodd ei gyflwyno
yn Genefa yr wythnos hon neu’r wythnos ddiwethaf. Wrth gwrs,
mae hwnnw, yn gyffredinol, yn didoli cyfrifoldebau Llywodraeth
Cymru a chyfrifoldebau Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol fel y
wladwriaeth sy’n barti. Beth yw eich ymateb chi i gasgliadau
cyffredinol yr adroddiad hwnnw? Fel yr ydych yn gwybod, mae’n
mynd fesul cam drwy wahanol rannau’r confensiwn ac yn dweud a
ydynt yn wyrdd, yn amber neu’n goch. Mae’r Llywodraeth
yn cael llawer iawn o amber yn yr adroddiad hwn, sef rhybudd nad yw
pethau’n cael eu gweithredu’n llwyr. Yn gyffredinol,
beth yw eich ymateb chi i’r adroddiad?
|
Simon
Thomas: Just a couple of
questions, if I may, Minister. I have been reading the monitoring
group report on the convention, which was presented in Geneva this
week or last week. Of course, that report, in general, sorts the
responsibilities of the Welsh Government and UK Government as the
state party. What is your response to the general conclusions of
this report? As you know, it does go stage by stage through
different parts of the convention and notes green, amber or red
designations. The Government is having a lot of amber designations,
which are basically a warning that things are not being done
properly or entirely. What’s your response to
that?
|
[226]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I think they
are being done properly. I mentioned that I think there’s a
much greater scrutiny now of all decisions—of policy
decisions, of legislative decisions. So, I don’t accept that.
|
[227]
Simon
Thomas: Nid
wyf yn mynd i fynd fesul un, er bod gennym ni 35 munud ac fe allwn
fynd fesul un drwyddyn nhw efallai. Ond, jest i gymryd un, sef
Government co-ordination:
|
Simon
Thomas: I am not going to
look at them one by one, although we do have 35 minutes and I could
look at them one by one. But, just to take one, Government
co-ordination:
|
[228]
‘effective
coordination of the implementation of the Convention throughout the
State party’—
|
[229]
rwy’n gwybod mai’r state party yw’r
Deyrnas Gyfunol—
|
I know that the
state party is the United Kingdom—
|
[230]
‘including
locally’, including the determination of priorities and
budgets. Welsh Government responsibility: amber.
|
[231]
Mewn
cyd-destun o doriadau mewn arian cyhoeddus, ac mewn cyd-destun lle
mae tlodi plant yn cynyddu yng Nghymru, ac yn sicr ddim yn cael ei
drechu, mae cael adroddiad sydd yn dweud bod eich cydlyniant chi ar
y mater hwnnw ond yn ambr—. Byddech chi wedi gobeithio cael
gwyrdd yno, does bosib.
|
In a context of
cuts in public funding, where child poverty is increasing in Wales,
and certainly is not being beaten, to have a report where your
cohesion in this matter is only amber—. You would have hoped
to have green there, surely.
|
[232]
Lesley Griffiths: Well, yes, of
course I would hope to have green. You know, the way that the
budget was done last year, to have that whole strategic impact
assessment: we plan to do the same with the draft budget this year.
I know there’s been criticism because a variety of Ministers
are responsible—well, every Minister is responsible for
children in some way. I think that’s the best way of doing
it. But, yes, of course we would want it to be green, and
it’s something I’m certainly very happy to look at
going forward.
|
[233]
Ms
Gwynedd: Just to also say
that the UNCRC monitoring group haven’t shared the report
with us, but I’m not sure that it’s particularly
helpful, the red-amber-green way, because it doesn’t allow
for constructive criticism in the way—‘Keep this; this
is really good, but you need to work on this’. It’s
just a blanket amber—
|
[234]
Simon
Thomas: Well, this is what
I’m trying to understand, really, without going through it
line by line. How is this report going to help you improve the way
you’re delivering the rights of the child and the convention
throughout Welsh Government? Is it a report that you simply look at
and think, ‘Well, these people haven’t talked to us.
They haven’t got a clue what’s really going on’,
and you ignore it? Or is it a report that you’re going to use
as a tool to change the way you implement policies within
Government? I mean, in what way is this now going to—?
Because this has certainly been central to Assembly Members. This
is a kind of easy hit for me. I can go through every one of these
and say that you’re not doing very well on lots and lots of
things. But, you know, how are you going to use it to improve your
delivery under this convention?
|
[235]
Lesley
Griffiths: Certainly,
I’d be happy to use it as a tool. I have met with a couple of
the members of the group, a few months ago now, and discussed
aspects of it, but, certainly, when it is shared with us, of course
we’ll use it as a tool and see where we can
improve.
|
[236]
Simon
Thomas: There’s one
specific thing—this is my final question—that it does
refer to, and I would like to press you on this one, and
that’s the use of corporal punishment for children, and
reasonable chastisement. That, as you know, is something that the
convention and the people who monitor the convention are very
concerned about. What’s the latest position of the Welsh
Government regarding your approach on that issue?
|
[237]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, nothing has
changed since the last statement. We continue to promote positive
parenting. We’ve enhanced our positive parenting campaigning
materials, for instance, and it’s a discussion that I have
with many of the children’s organisations. We don’t
feel we have the mandate to legislate this term. There is no time
in the legislative programme. But I am—and the officials know
this—. We do all we can to promote positive parenting. We
were doing it within our Flying Start areas, for instance.
I’ve enhanced that. We had a launch in the summer of a
further positive parenting campaign, and that’s what’s
I’m doing.
|
[238]
Simon
Thomas: Will you seek a
mandate for the next Assembly?
|
[239]
David
Rees: That’s for
the next Assembly.
|
[240]
Lesley
Griffiths: That’s a
matter for individual party manifestos.
|
[241]
Simon
Thomas: Well, I will
be.
|
[242]
David
Rees: What you and your
party will do is not for this committee to discuss at this point in
time. Minister, there is one point, I think, to highlight about the
report. You said that it’s not shared, but it is a public
report, I understand, so we should make that fully clear at this
point in time.
|
[243]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes.
|
[244]
David
Rees: Are there any
further questions? There are no further questions, therefore can I
thank the Minister for her attendance this morning? You will
obviously receive a copy of the transcript for both sessions, and
if there are any factual inaccuracies, please let us know as soon
as possible. Once again, thank you very much.
|
[245]
Lesley
Griffiths: Thank you very
much.
|
10:58
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Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note
|
[246]
David
Rees: We move on to item
4, papers to note. We have a letter from the Minister for Education
and Skills on the initial draft of the proposed additional learning
needs code, to inform that the code is now published, I believe.
Happy to note that? Yes. And the additional information from the
regional school effectiveness improvement service for north Wales,
following the meeting on 24 September. Happy to note that? And the
additional information from the education achievement service for
south-east Wales following its meeting on 16 September. Are we
happy to note that? Thank you.
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10:59
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Cynnig o Dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i
Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
Motion Under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to Resolve to Exclude the
Public from the Meeting for the Remainder of the Meeting
|
Cynnig:
|
Motion:
|
bod
y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod ac
ar gyfer yr holl gyfarfod ar 22 Hydref yn unol â Rheol
Sefydlog 17.42(ix).
|
that
the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of
the meeting and for the whole of the meeting on 22 October in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).
|
Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion
moved.
|
|
[247]
David
Rees: Under Standing
Order 17.42, I now move to resolve that we exclude the public from
the remainder of this meeting and for the whole of the meeting on
22 October. Are Members content? Then we will move into private
session.
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Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion
agreed.
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Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
10:59. The public part of
the meeting ended at 10:59.
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